[Pavel]

eugen, la Feb 21 2005, 05:16 PM, a spus:

Se pare ca amatori sunt, asa ca asteptam noutati!

Corect, se pare

[Z-mare]

Domnul Pave, dar ceva machete de la Tamiya?
Alexandru

[Pavel]

Z-mare, la Feb 21 2005, 05:41 PM, a spus:

Domnul Pave, dar ceva machete de la Tamiya?
Alexandru

Da, sunt si machete, dar cu tot cu pret de Tamiya!

[Z-mare]

Eu cred ca e normal sa fia asa .Subventiile s-au desfintat de multisor
Alexandru

[crios]

Tamiya a avut mereu preturi mai mari.
Revell vad ca se chinuie sa-i ajunga :-x
Bafta!

[mielu]

Spune-mi si mie Pavel, vopselele sunt de 10 sau 23 ml?

[oleg]

de o luna folosesc acrilice tamya, sunt foarte impresionat: putere de acoperirie minunata, se aplica foarte bine cu periuta se usuca foarte rapid, ceia nu e un avantaj pentru dry brushing dar daca le folosesti in combinatie cu emailuri sunt minunate, pina acum n-am incercat acrilice, de tamya sunt incintat, miros placut si instrumentele se spala usor. In Anglia ele se vind la un pret de 1.10 lire ceia ce echivalent cu 1.54 euro.
as fi foarte bucuros sa pot gasi si pe la noi. la pretul propus de Pavel.


Stau si eu in coada

[Gustav]

crios&cartula: acrylicele Tamiya sunt defapt "adevaratele" acylice ptr.
modelism(impreuna cu cele Gunze-no.1!).Recomandabil
este diluantul Tam. dar alcoolul izoprop face treaba f.bine
(diluantul firmei mai contine inca ceva comp. printre care
si un retarder).
Pe scurt: ptr. utilizatorii de enameluri va fi o revalatie;
sunt sigur..Partea neplacuta:gama tonala cam limitata
(comparativ cu Gunze)deci ptr.RLM-uri sunt necesare
combinatii.
ps.:asocierea acylice+apa este o legenda care a facut ceva
"victime"(frustrati)..probabil vom mai vorbi..

[cartula]

E, n-as merge Gustav asa departe incat sa zic ca-s "adevaratele" acrilice... Realitatea e ca acrilic nu inseamna obligatoriu ca se dilueaza cu apa, asta e cert.
Iar despre diluant, personal chiar n-am vazut absolut nici o diferenta intre izopropilic 98% si diluantul Tamiya, exista niste 'zvonuri' despre retarder-ul cu pricina dar n-am vazut nimic cert pe tema asta.

Iar 'revelatia' nu a insemnat ca am renuntat la emailuri, ba dimpotriva In continuare folosesc aproape exclusiv emailuri sau vopsele tip 'lacquers' (chiar, cum se numesc astea in romana?) desi am folosit si acrilice Tamiya/Pactra in ultima vreme...

[Gustav]

Ma refeream la faptul ca daca gasesti combinatia corecta
intre dilutie/presiune aceste Tamiya sunt mai usor de stapinit.
Iar Gunze sunt si mai "prietenoase" din acest pdv:permit pres.
mici fara riscul "blocajelor".
"adevarate"-prin comparatie cu ce se gaseste pe piata rom. de
profil...Ramine,desigur,problema pretului;vom vedea..

[crios]

Gustav, la Feb 21 2005, 10:37 PM, a spus:

ps.:asocierea acylice+apa este o legenda care a facut ceva
"victime"(frustrati)..probabil vom mai vorbi..

Scuze, dar acylice+apa nu este o legenda nici pe departe.
Revell avea astfel de vopsele si cam tot ce vezi vopsit pe Corvette 1/8 pe care deja l-am postat (exceptie argintiul) si integral Ford Branco + Yamaha F1 sunt aceste "legende"
De restul este cum ai spus si ...
Bafta!

[Z-mare]

Cartula, ce sit aceste vopsele tip 'lacquers', cum "arata" ele? Nu am reusit inca sa ma lamuresc .....convingator
Alexandru

[Ahmed]

Din cate stiu eu "lacquers" sunt toate vopselele si lacurile bazate pe extrase din petrol, aici intrand si emailurile.

[cartula]

Citeaza

Din cate stiu eu "lacquers" sunt toate vopselele si lacurile bazate pe extrase din petrol, aici intrand si emailurile.

Nope... Denumirea in engleza este "enamels" pentru emailuri, lacquers pentru cele bazate pe solventi extrem de volatili... O caracteristica a unei vopsele e timpul de uscare extrem de mic (cateva minute)... Si daca vreti un exemplu de asa ceva, metalizoarele MM din seria 14xx sunt de genul asta.

@crios, cred ca Gustav se referea mai degraba la faptul ca atunci cand cineva aude de acrilice, se gandeste automat la vopselele pe baza de apa, si uneori nu e cazul. Si ajunge sa le dilueze gresit, cu rezultate nasoale.

[Z-mare]

" ...lacquers pentru cele bazate pe solventi extrem de volatili... " Si daca vreti un exemplu de asa ceva, metalizoarele MM"....Cartula, nu stiu ce sa zic. Vopselele Luftwaffe aveau la baza astfelede "lacques" si nu cred ca se usca un citeva minute. Sa fie ceva gen duco? Daia zic ca nu sint lamurit: am auzit tot felul de variante
Alexandru

[Ahmed]

De pe Scalemodel.net, "Modeling F.A.Q.". Textul e in engleza si cam lung dar cred ca merita studiat:

"Q] What are these new "acrylic" paints I'm hearing about?
[A] schmitz@transarc.com (Don Schmitz 11/96)

Typical paints have 3 components:

- pigment : the material (often a metal compound) that gives the paint
its color.

- vehicle : the solid material that is left on the surface after the
paint dries. This is what gives the paint its protective
properties.

- solvent : the liquid that the "vehicle" is disolved in so as to
make the paint liquid in the bottle.

Paints are characterized by both the type of vehicle and solvent used,
and also as one of "enamel" or "lacquer".

An "enamel" is a paint that both "dries" and "cures". After applying
an enamel, the solvent evaporates, leaving a layer of the vehicle
material on the surface. The vehicle then "cures", undergoing a chemical
change that makes it much harder and usually less soluble in the original
solvent used in the paint. This is why it is so easy to finger print a fresh
coat of enamel paint even though it is dry to the touch - it hasn't
cured yet.

A "lacquer" on the other hand only "dries" - as soon as the solvent
evaporates the paint film is in its final state. Lacquers remain soluble
in the original solvent used in the paint - those solvents can be used to
remove a lacquer paint long after the paint has dried. Lacquers may
appear to "cure" - the surface will appear dry but the paint will still
be soft enough to fingerprint for some time after painting - but this
is because solvent is trapped under the dry surface and takes a little
while to completely evaporate.

These two ways of characterizing a paint are often mixed - for example
an "acrylic lacquer" is a lacquer type paint with an acrylic (plastic)
based vehicle. Since it is a lacquer, the solvent is implied to be
a petroleum based "lacquer thinner".

As you might expect, "enamels" and "lacquers" have various tradeoffs
that affect which you might want to use for a particular application.
The big advantage of lacquers is their lack of curing time - air dryed
enamels can take weeks to cure to full hardness, while lacquers dry
hard enough to handle/sand/polish within 24-48 hours. The vehicle and
pigments used in lacquer paints has (at least traditionally) been much
more opaque than that in enamels, so when using lacquers you can apply
a thinner paint film that doesn't obscure surface detail. Lacquers
also tend to dry harder than enamels (even after the enamel cures),
which makes them more durable. This means the paint doesn't wear off
the parts from handling during final assembly, and is less likely to
wear through during polishing.

The downside to lacquers is that the solvents used are usually pretty
nasty stuff that will attack kit styrene, brush bristles and brain cells
with equal glee. The other problem with lacquers is that painting one
color over another can result in the top coat re-disolving and mixing
with the base coat, resulting in muddy colors.

IMPORTANT NOTE: the word "enamel" is sometimes used to refer to any
glossy colored finish, regardless of it's chemistry. The most common
example of this "mis-naming" is on bottles of nail polish that tout
themselves as "nail enamel", when their behavior is usually more like
a lacquer. In fact model car builders sometimes use nail polish and
treat it just like a lacquer paint - even down to thinning it with
lacquer thinner.

Until recently, most paints intended for modeling - like the little
bottles of Testor's - were traditional enamels, using relatively mild
petroleum (or "oil") based solvents with "alkyld" based vehicles [no,
I don't know what an "alkyld" is - any paint chemists have a simple
explanation?] In addition to the obvious benefits for modeling - relatively
safe for plastic and humans, no problems with detail painting on top
of a base coat - these paints have drawbacks for the serious modeler:
they take a long time to cure, never cure very hard, and go on so
thick that they obscure molded in surface detail.

But technology marches on... Lacquers have been formulated with
more plastic-friendly solvents. Acrylic, and to a lesser extent
polyurethane derived "vehicles" make it possible to formulate an
"enamel" paint that covers as thin and dries and cures nearly as fast
and hard as a lacquer. The ultimate trend in this direction are
"aqueous acrylic enamels" - enamel paints with an acrylic vehicle that
use *water* as a solvent.

ANOTHER NOTE: Modelers often refer to "aqueous acrylics" as simply
"acrylics". This is a little dangerous, since there are also
"petroleum-based acrylic enamels" and "petroleum-based acrylic lacquers"
available, and you don't want to mix up the thinners for these 3
very different types of paints. "

[cartula]

Foarte bun textul cu pricina, Ahmed.
Reiese din el ca da, MM-urile 14xx sunt 'laqueur', ca si Alclad-ul care-l folosesc pentru metalice...

[Blue-Max]

Hmm, asta ar trebui bagat cumva la Articole, caci altfel se va cam pierde .... :idea:

[Ahmed]

Pai face parte dintr-un compendium mai mare de pe Scalemodel.net, problema e ca nu imi apartine.
Oricum, pt. cei interesati, iata cum puteti sa il gasiti:
Intrati pe www.scalemodel.net La sectiunea "General Interest" dati click pe "Modeling Techniques". Primul topic in lista aparuta va fi "rec.models.FAQ" -adica ceea ce cautati. Materialul e grupat pe sectiuni.

[crios]

cartula, la Feb 22 2005, 12:02 PM, a spus:

@crios, cred ca Gustav se referea mai degraba la faptul ca atunci cand cineva aude de acrilice, se gandeste automat la vopselele pe baza de apa, si uneori nu e cazul. Si ajunge sa le dilueze gresit, cu rezultate nasoale.

Eu stiu la ce se gandea doar ca n-am vrut sa se inteleaga in extrema cealalta precum ca acrilice+apa ar fi un fel de "Miorita".

In orice caz, fiecare producator specifica care este diluantul lui pentru respectivele vopsele si il recomanda pe al lui.
Daca noi facem experiente este deja treaba noastra.
Eu personal le prefer pe cele care se dilueaza cu apa sau izo pentru ca nu depind de producator si de faptul ca daca nu mai am diluantul specific, sau nu-l mai gasesc, pot sa ma "spal pe cap" cu vopselele.
Bafta!